Doctor Who is now known and celebrated across the globe, with its popularity rapidly increasing with every adventure. As the fandom and fifty-year legacy expands, Doctor Who has become very special television for millions of fans young and old. As with all cult favourites, there exists a personal connection and this is particularly prominent with Doctor Who, especially as we travel the Universe with a new Doctor and a new face, every now and then.
Tom Baker is a wonderful example of a well-known associate after portraying the fourth Doctor from 1974 to 1981. As such an iconic and legendary part of science fiction, Baker is arguably the most beloved and adored actor to play The Doctor to this day. After the star made his unexpected return in the shows’ 50th Anniversary last year, the popularity of Baker among newer fans has soared to the stratosphere. Last week THN had the amazing, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to attend the press launch of Doctor Who for the Horror Channel, with the living legend himself in attendance.
The wonderful Baker took part in a lengthy Q&A session where he revealed a number of interesting details and secrets from the classic series and his 50th anniversary return. You can check out our interview, along with some photos from the event, below!
Now that Doctor Who has found a new home on the ‘Horror Channel’, which of your episodes do you think were the most horror-orientated?
Tom Baker: Oh, I thought they were all great comedy when I was doing them! Though I suppose the obvious answer would be The Talons of Weng Chiang and things like that, all that rather spooky stuff…and there was one about Pyramids….Pyramids of Mars.
Do you think Doctor Who should be horrific? And is that a key part?
TB: Well….Yes. I think it should be whatever people want it to be. I mean, I’m very interested in Horror. Although now horror is an actuality of me [laughs]. We like to be frightened…I heard a woman the other day in Waterstones (UK Bookstore) who said “Have you got anything…murder? Gruesome? Have you got anything like that?” and when you look, that’s the biggest selling thing, isn’t it? We all want to get away from sanity and chastity and virtue and be frightened and enter another world when in reality, of course, we want nice neighbours and no crime, don’t we? It’s that lovely area of our imagination which says “Let’s get out of here and into our imaginations“, I think.
What’s it like seeing the fans enthusiasm for your version of the character to this day?
TB: I dare say you’re referring to ExCeL, aren’t you? (The Official Doctor Who Celebration 23rd November 2013). Seeing the fans enthusiasm donkey’s years after I’ve left is really quite extraordinary and also the intensity of their emotions. I get lots of mail, probably 10 a day or something like that, and they’re all emotional, people thanking me and reminding me of their childhood and how happy they were. In those days, television was so…allowed us to cohere more, didn’t it, without a video recorder. You had to watch it to watch television in real-time and talk about it the next day, otherwise you were out of the loop. And so people stop me and say sweet things. A man stopped me in Oxford Street and said he couldn’t believe it. He stopped me and said “I can’t believe it” and I caught a glimpse of myself in the shop window and I thought I can’t believe it either [laughs]. He kept saying “I can’t believe it” and he said “Look, when I was a little boy I was in care in Wales somewhere in a home. Nobody wanted us. Nobody wanted me.” And then his eyes came to tears and he said “…and you made a difference.” I was terribly touched by that. I made a difference. I went to speak to him and then he couldn’t speak. He just gave a little eloquent punch that sometimes people do, and he was gone.
So those little encounters…the other day a man wrote to me that he was getting married. He met his girlfriend in a queue when I was signing books. The queue was so long he was introduced to this girl and by the time he got to me, he was engaged. In America of course, in the long queues, some people met in a queue and by the time they got to me, they were married, and so this fellow now wants me to actually conduct the wedding. I had to tell him “Listen, I checked the laws out”, I Googled it up and it wasn’t allowed. I thought it might be a fun photo shoot, but it’s not allowed. I’d have to do a course and I’m not in the mood for becoming a registrar.
This season on the ‘Horror Channel’ is going to involve other Doctors as well. Is the fact that there are other actors as well something that you have reconciled with or was that always an uncomfortable truth for you?
TB: Well it only recently dawned on me that there were other Doctors [Laughs]. I don’t know them and I’ve got no desire to know them, and of course I’ve never watched them. I thought it was only fair never to watch them, because I didn’t watch my own myself. I think all I wanted was to do it. You see the thing is, I can say it now because it doesn’t really matter what I say, I was playing ‘The Doctor’ long before I got the part. I didn’t watch it because I was so opinionated about which shots they use. I just celebrated coming out of obscurity and into being a children’s hero and not to be soppy about it but it really gave me enormous pleasure, and I did a lot to promote the programme and still do.
Was it fun to return last year in the 50th Anniversary Special with Matt Smith?
TB: Going to Cardiff at four on a Winters morning couldn’t possibly be fun [laughs], but it was nice although I didn’t understand the cameras anymore because of the High Definition. So I was a bit uneasy but Matt Smith was a charming young man and we did the scene, which people liked a lot. I have to tell you also that I had a very poor background in Liverpool…so I wanted to be adored, because everybody wants to be loved and admired and everything. I always wanted to be adored, like lots of people. I bet you’d like to be adored, wouldn’t you?. And so when it happened and suddenly I was adored, I was ready for it, I really was ready for it and of course I’ve never recovered from it [laughs]. Also of course I’m still playing the part for Big Finish, Big Finish Productions. I think I’ve got 16 or 18 adventures so it’s still going on. It doesn’t matter that I can’t walk very well now because that’s the lovely thing about audio. So it was a happy time and it goes on being happy. But listen, are you interested in happiness? I mean, if you want misery I can change tack.
How does it feel when you are approached by young fans that probably weren’t even born when the classic series of Doctor Who aired?
TB: I’m not approached now by young fans, I’m approached by early middle-aged fans. Sometimes they have their children with them and then something charming happens. I usually pass over a Jelly Baby and I have lots of small coins because children adore money. I say “Are you alright for money?” to a little boy and he’s like “Well, no.“, so I give a pound and a 20p and then I say “Look, if you meet a begger, give him the 20p and you can keep the pound” and he said “Alright” [laughs]. He looks at his father and thinks I’m mad but fortunately, my wife isn’t very poor so I’ve got a pocket full of change. I can’t bear poor women they make me feel so insecure. Even when I was young, someone said that it’s a bit like ear-ache. You can’t stop thinking about it when you’re poor and you go to bed thinking “Christ I’m poor“. Then when you wake up in the night for a pee and you think “I’m still poor” and when it comes to passion and lovemaking, being poor kind of gets in the way I think anyway. You say “Darling, this is marvellous, absolutely marvellous. What did you say? What do you mean you’re still poor?” and all passion flies.
Speaking about the other Doctors, do you have any advice for Peter Capaldi as the 12th Doctor?
TB: Ah, no. No, I don’t have any advice for anyone. Not for anyone, certainly not someone who’s going to be playing The Doctor. He’s a very accomplished actor, I’ve seen him do those mean things, you know, swearing into his mobile. Nobody has ever failed have they? Nobody has ever failed, so there you are. He’s going to be alright.
Going back to the 50th Anniversary Special, do you have a clear idea, or an opinion as to who your character was? Was he an older 4th Doctor or…..?
TB: Well, typical of the BBC nobody knows. It could be anything. It could be the next director general for I know. The thing with the BBC is you’ve really got to be able to suspend your disbelief, I mean anything can happen at the BBC. I mean, the monsters on Doctor Who were never so amazing as some of the monsters on the 6th floor.
Which were the best Doctor Who villains and monsters?
TB: Well I like them all. I mean, somehow I always wanted to be more friendly towards them, but you know, I liked them all I think. The Daleks of course were always shouting and always being beaten, they never learned anything!. I used to like the ones that are grizzly you know, sticky. That….stickiness.
If you could play any villain or monster, which one would you like to play?
TB: I was in Frankenstein: The True Story and I was going to be Frankenstein, the monster, and Christopher Isherwood (who wrote it) didn’t think I was nearly pretty enough, It’s true!. It was a big Universal production and they gave it to a very good looking actor and they gave me the part of the ship’s captain instead. But, I’ve never really had the chance to play monsters. Except of course in my private life.
How does it feel to still be the longest running Doctor to this day?
TB: Well it’s a bit daunting actually. You know, I’m about 29,200 days old. It’s pretty daunting to think about it really. I can’t believe it, you know, all that time has passed. Isn’t it amazing, it almost makes me immortal…people are still stopping me in the street and saying: “You were really influential in my life”. I like that a lot and if they say it nicely I’ll offer them money. Not advice…money. People are more interested in money than advice. Bugger the advice, give us the money!.
In your last year in playing the Doctor in the original series, there was much made of the conflict between you and John-Nathan Turner and how you wanted to do the role and how he wanted to take the series. Was there a real conflict?
TB: Yes there certainly was. I didn’t like his taste in anything at all. He knew that and he didn’t like what I was doing because he wanted to put his mark on the programme of course, which was quite understandable. When I offered my resignation he embraced me with tears in his eyes very much which I was shocked at. Of course I thought he might have said “Are you sure?“. He was so relieved. After that I think he sent me some flowers or something and then we became quite good friends when all the tension was gone and it didn’t matter anymore. But oh yes there were arguments with how it should be done because it’s often a matter of opinion about what’s funny or what’s dramatic, and no two/three people agree all the time about that. But that’s all in the past now…and then he died. One of the reasons my career kind of stalled after Doctor Who, except for the audio, is that the word got around that after working with me quite a lot of directors…you know…died!. Some of them I believe, in total agony. Then word had gone around and so naturally…I noticed that one day that I saw Trevor Nunn in the street and he crossed the road to avoid me. I shouted “Trevor!” and he cut me and I thought “Why is he cutting me like that”. People are nervous of actors who make them die which I think is a bit wimpish.
Can you remember how you felt the first time you got a fan letter for playing the Doctor in Doctor Who?
TB: Yes it was a good feeling but now it wears me out because the fans are very demanding. When I open the letters there are lots of instructions telling me where to sign and what to do. Also I can tell if people are anxious by their letters because I can’t get the letters open. You know those people who put on lots of sellotape. Fortunately I have a man who helps me in the garden, so he opens the bad ones. But there are lots of instructions about where it should be and they ask the same questions you know, which girl did I love the most?…that brings back memories.
You wore a fair amount of costumes during your tenure. Were there any that you didn’t like wearing or were you simply not fussed?
TB: No no, I wasn’t fussed because the costume directors I got on very well with, especially June Hudson. They’re all flamboyant I mean the last one I had was almost operatic wasn’t it?…that kind of purple coat. I liked all that, and the big hats, and the scarf and everything. I’d like to have worn it in real life but I can’t at my age be walking down the street with a big scarf and a walking stick. It just wouldn’t look sexy [laughs]
Genesis Of The Daleks was one of several stories that addressed politics. How important was it for you to have politics and meaning in the episodes that you were in?
TB: The character that I play, ‘The Doctor’ is actually rather priggish I think, so my job was often to hide that. He was always terribly politically correct and I notice still in the scripts that he’s always a bit soppy really and so I tried to hide that all the time. But all that stuff about when I was going to blow up the Daleks and then I had to say that lovely line, “Have I the right?” which is a cue for a song really [Laughs]. The reason I didn’t have the right was Terry Nation would have absolutely had me murdered. You know, it was his living, the monsters. So I just tried to play the way I was really. I’ve always felt myself to be a kind of benevolent alien really.
Mentioning the girls you were with, the Doctor Who world still mourns Elisabeth Sladen who tragically died a couple of years ago. She was in the show when you joined, what particular memories do you have of working with her?
TB: Well…Elisabeth Sladen. It was a terrible blow to me when she left because she mistakenly thought that a new producer at the end of her first year contract wanted to choose his own girl, which is apparently very common. So she anticipated that by resigning and it was a terrible shock to me because we got on so well and she admired me so much, and people who admire me really can be quite influential with me. I can be really quite persuaded if I get enough admiration and she was so good about that. She was replaced by Louise Jameson, and Louise tells me “we’re good friends now”, often working together I was very cold towards her. When I tell her it was because I was shocked because Elisabeth was gone, it also of course changed our physical relationship a lot because with Elisabeth Sladen, I used to be able to throw her into the tunnel and scramble after her and that was absolutely great. But when Louise arrived playing the character of Leela (wearing very few clothes) I couldn’t throw her into a pipe and then scrabble in afterwards without raising at least eyebrows. If you know what I mean…but gradually we became friendly.
Talking of Elisabeth Sladen, there were rumours that you were going to appear in The Sarah Jane Adventures. Was that something you were going to do?
TB: I think it was being mooted at a time when Elisabeth began to be ill. I’d never seen it, you see, but she was so thrilled. I always had a terrific tender thing for her you know. I never met her out of the studio except by the time she was doing that, but I never got round to doing that. I don’t accept many jobs now because I think I can’t be bothered. I mean what’s the point of having a rich wife and chasing cheap jobs at the BBC?, it just doesn’t figure does it? Just does not figure [laughs].
Do you know what role you would have played [in The Sarah Jane Adventures] and would you have played The Doctor?
TB: Well of course I would have been playing the Doctor! Christ man after I left Doctor Who and went…I mean when I played Macbeth, of course I did it in the style of The Doctor because I felt I had to do it, because the audience were all Doctor Who fans. The other actors didn’t like that and afterwards some of the people said…one of the reviewers said “I had no idea that Macbeth was such a nice fellow“. It was exactly the same when I played in An Inspector Calls, that rather dreary old sermon, and some American fans used to come. They booked for a fortnight and sat in the front row and in two days they had got to know the play. So they used to hang around in the corner and then when I used to come on, they would rush in and sort of look at me like [makes nervous panting noise] like that. The other actors again had no sense of humour at all, they said “what’s going on?“, and I said “I’m being adored, that’s what’s going on!”. What do you want to do tell them to go away?…They’ve bought the tickets. “They didn’t buy the tickets to see you!” I said, and it’s true they didn’t buy tickets to see him. He was big in Coronation Street but in the Doctor Who world he was nobody.
How did you actually land the part of ‘The Doctor’ in Doctor Who?
TB: It’s only because I was in The Golden Voyage Of Sinbad and it was on next door to the BBC (the Odeon there) maybe about 50 yards from the BBC. When my name came up they said “Tom’s in a film next door“, so they all piled into a taxi because that’s what they do at the BBC, and went next door. They liked my playing of a wizard or something and that got me the interviews and one thing led to another and then I was The Doctor! As in the BBC, the cruelty when I got it, they said “right, you’re on” and I said “Oh, that’s marvellous“. I was working on a building site making tea because that’s all I was good for, and the guy said “however Tom”, there’s always a chilling ‘but’ when you get good news isn’t there?, he said “You can’t tell anyone for a fortnight”. I thought “Christ I haven’t worked for 20 weeks!. You know I’m working on a building site and I had to keep my mouth shut for two weeks…whole weeks!, when I was going to play a big part. It was very painful but I was happy to do it. That’s why I stayed so long. Why would I walk away from happiness?.
Your last line in Doctor Who is very celebrated: “It’s the end, but the moment has been prepared for”, what is your opinion on that?
TB: Well the fans liked lines like that. They like those lines, yeah. I wanted to put in more lines, I wanted to say things like “Shall I compare thee to a summers day?” or things like that but the BBC didn’t find that funny at all [laughs]. They didn’t find my ideas that I might have met Shakespeare or that the TARDIS (which was bigger on the inside) could be infinitely bigger. You know…the girl could get lost somewhere and discover that I was a famous Elizabethan actor or whatever. They didn’t like my ideas at all and I can’t say I blame them…I do have some terrible ideas!.
Throughout the 1970s there were numerous occasions when Doctor Who came under fire from some quarters for supposedly being too scary. What are your thoughts on that and do you think it was something adults were worried more about than the younger viewers?
TB: Well I don’t know about now because I don’t watch much television and things have changed. But I used to like the idea of children being scared. I used to live with an actor and he had three children in a big house in Muswell Hill, and sometimes we used to play games. It really was a big house and we put the lights out all over the place and I’d get them to count to 50 and then I’d creep about and it was marvellous the way these children would…and sometimes I could hear them squeaking with terror when I was creeping into cloakrooms or whatever. I mean…that idea of being frightened. Children like playing at being frightened don’t they?. The other thing is that in television they can go much further than the cinema because in television they’re watching it in a domestic context. That’s why it’s so powerful I suppose, and when they look away from what’s frightening they can see fish fingers or whatever it is their mother is giving them…muesli nowadays I suppose!. So I never heard anyone complain that I frightened them. I mean, just look at me and try and imagine me 40 years ago…if you can!. No…I wasn’t at all frightening really. Even now as an old man, I can’t do fright [laughs].
Did you find K-9 a blessing or a nuisance?
TB: Curiously enough, I’ve got rather bad arthritis now and I’m on some very powerful anti-inflammatory’s, so the doctor said there might be some side effects. One of the side effects…two of the side effects I’ve had recently, is I’ve started calling my dog, Poppy, K-9 [laughs]. The other thing is that I’ve been calling my wife Dorothy when really her name is Sue. So we’ve knocked off those pills and I’m just on patches now, so my memory’s coming back a bit. I didn’t like K-9 at all because it meant that every time we had a shot in those days I had to get on my knees which reminded me of the days when I was a Catholic, and it was pretty bloody boring being reminded of those days. So that was kind of boring and the dog couldn’t move quickly in the old days. It was retrieved in rehearsal by John Leeson, actually playing the dog, he actually moved around. I said “why don’t we give him another costume, looking like a dog, and why can’t he answer the phone and play chess or something”, but by that time the BBC had calculated that they were marketing K-9 and they didn’t want any discussion about that. But finally I got used to it. One can get used to quite a lot.
Obviously Doctor Who’s a huge part of your life and your career…
TB: And yours too by the number of questions you’re asking! [laughs].
Of all the other things you’ve done; stage, TV, film, what are the things you’re particularly proud of?
TB: Well nothing has ever approached Doctor Who…nothing at all, I’ve never recovered from it. That’s why I’m so delighted to be still playing it. In Waitrose and places like that I’m still called ‘the Doctor’ and lots of old ladies, who weren’t always old ladies, recognise me and say charming things. They ignore Donald Sinden, and the other people and they come to me. An old lady said to me recently, after she had crashed into my trolley three times… I knew something was afoot. She said “It’s so lovely to see you here Mr Baker, you know I’ve been a widow for many years and I live quite close by”. Yes that’s what I thought. I thought yes that’s good, you know…“Come on then, let’s get to it”. Then I noticed was that she was also on two sticks, so we postponed the encounter.
Do you regret never making the Doctor Who film that you planned?
TB: There was a talk…I wrote a film called Scratchman with Ian Marter but nothing came of it. It’s still in existence…circulating. People look at it and think they can make an audio or something like that. But I was out of my depth when it came to how you would market a film of Doctor Who because the BBC, you know, it would be difficult…too difficult.
You were initially going to be in ‘The Five Doctors’, which you eventually turned down. Years later you regretted that decision. Did that have something to do as mentioned earlier with your disagreements with producer John-Nathan Turner?
TB: I turned down The Five Doctors because it wasn’t long since I’d left and also I didn’t…I’d left Doctor Who because I think I’d run my course but also I wasn’t getting on very well with John. Later we became friends but when I realised he was going to produce something, I thought “No“. Anyway I didn’t want to play 20% of the film!. I wanted to be either…terrible admission that…no, I didn’t fancy being kind of just a feed for other Doctors. In fact it filled me with horror. Now of course if somebody asked me to do a scene with some old Doctors, if they let me tamper with the script, it’d probably be quite droll. I’ll think of that.
Have you still got any Doctor Who mementos?
TB: No, I’ve no mementos left at all because it was all begged off me. I had lots and lots of things but when you’re a sex symbol…I mean a hero [laughs], when you’re a hero, all the charities. The thing about charities, I used to explain that…you remember those people who stop you for your banks, to stop you to sign up your bank details. I used to try to explain to them how terrifying it was. I said “listen man, I’m not going to give you any addresses” I said “I’ll give you some money now” and they said “we can’t have money, we want your particulars“. I said “listen, the minute you give anything to charity, your whole life changes“.
Bang goes peace of mind…you’re terrified of the phone going…a knock on the door. It’s what charities do you know, they’re not interested in your peace of mind…they want a piece of your money and that’s understandable. I understand that perfectly and avoid them like the plague. That’s the strategy isn’t it? I mean…I help out the local hospice. I often go down there because people who are dying always seem glad to see me. I remember one old lady – they take me round and they take photographers – one darling old lady who only had about, I suppose 30 minutes to live. She held my hand so hard and looked at me with such ecstasy and she said “oh fancy seeing you here“. She said “oh oh oh“. Eventually she stopped saying “oh” just before she died and I realised that she thought she’d died and gone to heaven and I was the greeter. So I don’t mind doing it down there because who could resist the hospice movement?.
When you were approached to appear in the 50th anniversary special, did you ever contemplate not doing it?
TB: Yes, I did contemplate not doing it and I was persuaded by a lovely girl called Caroline Skinner, who was a producer. She came to meet me in Rye, some little hotel in Rye, the Mermaid Hotel, the antique place and she begged me to be in it you see. She’s a very persuasive girl and she was very charming about it, she said I could tamper with the script or whatever, so I said yes to her. Then the script arrived a few months later and I didn’t much care for it.
[Notices that there are Jelly Babies on the table in front of him]
Are they jelly babies? Would you like a jelly baby? …I didn’t much care for the script you see, so I rang the BBC and said “listen, get me Caroline Skinner“. They said “Who?” I said “Is that the Doctor Who production office?”. They said “yes”. I said “And you’re asking me who Caroline Skinner is?…The producer?” “Oh…[makes muffled phone noise], I’m so sorry, she’s not with us anymore“. It was only later I found out she’d been murdered, you know by someone else at the BBC I suppose who was after her job. I never heard of her again but by that time you see I’d agreed to do it. I’m not sorry now. I miss meeting Caroline, she was very sweet.
Are you aware that your appearance [in the 50th] upset some of the other former Doctors?
TB: Oh I hope so yes [laughing with a large grin from ear to ear]. Thanks a lot for reminding me of that! [laughs]. That really pleased me. The other thing that was a terrible mistake made actually…when they introduced us all…were you at ExCeL? [Official Doctor Who 50th Anniversary Convention]. Do you remember Nick Briggs who does those lovely friendly interviews?, well there were about 3000 people in there and what he really should have done was the curtain should…there wasn’t a curtain. Should have called us all on stage and introduced us but he didn’t. He quite reasonably thought “I’ll start with the old man in case he’s dead by the time I get to him!”…and he said “Ladies and Gentleman, The Fourth Doctor Tom Baker“. I walked on into the light and it was ecstasy, the applause was tumultuous and I thought I hope this never stops. It went on and on and on and I was messing around to extend it and everything. That was a terrible mistake because I know as an old actor that in a room there is only such much laughter, only so much energy and I’d taken about 30% of it in the first 40 seconds. I kept thinking “if this goes on, the other boys are going to come on in silence“. So naturally I went on and they came on to less energy in the room. There you are, that’s showbusiness!
As such an iconic star, how much does Doctor Who affect your life?
TB: It informs my life almost entirely outside my home because I’m a famous fiction. People, everybody in the shops around, they all call me Doctor. I respond as the Doctor and they present babies to me and say lovely things. So once I’m out in public, especially locally in Tunbridge Wells or Rye or whatever it impinges on me all the time but in a very benevolent way, as if someone saying “Darling…I mean Doctor.” Sometimes they say “darling” and I say hello or bless their children or something like that.
Classic Doctor Who is available on the Horror Channel now!
